The Balanced Axe

Discussion in 'Baryonyx Knife Co.' started by FortyTwoBlades, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Theodore

    Theodore Member

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    Go ahead and post the picture if you are not holding it off center.
    Do you have a list of them you tested that could benifit? How is this a factual statement? Is this a geuss? What currently manufactured axes suffer this issue? I just showed you two bottom of the barrel hardware store axes that do not suffer it. Are you claiming high end felling axes do?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  2. Theodore

    Theodore Member

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    By all means post the pic if you are not holding it off center.
    One could argue that the ever so slight difference between my pics and what a double bit would look like(right down the middle straight handle) causes a noticable difference in accuracy. Then to go to the extreem off balance that the large blade polless axe is and add a more extremely curved handle would greatly reduce accuracy.
     
  3. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok, here's the German axe, which was originally posted with the caption "A conventional polled German axe by Adler". Never claimed that this was an American pattern.

    [​IMG]

    I don't have every single example I've ever tested at my beck and call, obviously. But I can take some photographs of ones I have access to if you really feel it's necessary.

    One could argue all sorts of things and be completely incorrect. Just because one argues something doesn't make it true. However, the arguments I've put forth can be tested and verified. You have yet to provide an example that violates the principles I've laid out. Again, you seem to completely miss the point that I neither wrote a defense nor a condemnation of either approach, merely an explanation of what makes them tick and some of the rationale behind the design choices. Both styles provide certain strengths and weaknesses over the alternative. In the case of a poll-less or poll-minimal design it enables a lighter overall build for a given bit geometry, and permits a wider eye without thickening the bit or causing clearance issues (which can be of advantage when using non-hickory woods or slip fit handles since the handle shape is constrained by the size of the eye) at the expense of complicating unified-axis handle fabrication and mandating that the head be lighter for those given bit dimensions (it's not always a benefit.) Polled axes simplify handle manufacture, allow a heavier head for a given bit geometry, and add pounding ability, but at the expense of less clearance for the neck of the handle and mandating a heavier head for those given bit dimensions (it's not always a benefit.)
     
  4. Theodore

    Theodore Member

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    That is definitely coming off at an angle. Not centered. As I said. Now perhaps you should adress the staw man you built in your article. Where are the American felling axes that a plumb line from center of handle and grip will be outside the handle? Who are the manufacturers who you claim may not even know anything about building handles and balance? Go ahead and snap some picks, I think you are just making claims without having facts. I have plenty of experience with both a double bit and single bit American felling axe. Enough to know from actual hands on experience the difference in accuracy. I also hqve plenty of experience with straight handled single bits. Sooooo, now you are talking theory and I am talking experience. The curved handle effects accuracy. A double bits balance increases accuracy. This is confirmed by numerous individuals. In numerous books. Talked about in numerous videos. You increase the handle curvature and/or the lack of balance you will decrease accuracy. Lol, on most axes the poll isnt for pounding.
     
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  5. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    If you shift the line over the tiny amount required to get it to be absolutely perfectly centered it won't affect the location of the center of gravity even remotely significantly enough to meaningfully change the marked position. You'll notice that in the first of the images you posted there's a similarly insignificant deviation at the suspension point.

    The number of individuals in numerous books and videos are, pretty much universally, parroting one another because they heard it from some authority or another, usually Weisgerber's "An Axe to Grind", and if not him, from Cook. Cook gets credit for being one of the first fellows to try describing some of these dynamics, but he gets some things wrong and draws some false conclusions as a result.

    Increasing offset in the neck doesn't impact the accuracy save for how it affects alignment with the axle, while curvature at the butt end yields a longer lever arm for influencing the rotation of the axe. That means that it's easier to rotate...but also easier to hold steady.

    I do have experience with axes, including polled, poll-less, curved handles, and straight handles, thick axes, thin axes, wide axes, and narrow axes, wedged axes and slip fit axes...

    You continue to fail to poke any holes in the concepts I've presented. By all means feel free to try explaining, from the ground up, how an axe balances and why. I'd be interested in seeing how your explanation differs, as mine is based both on observation and the application of physics. Again, the things I've asserted could be verified by any mechanical engineer. It's really not very complicated stuff.
     
  6. Theodore

    Theodore Member

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    Mine was taped on center below my fingers. Yours was off center. A quarter inch off at the top of a plumb line is a quarter inch off at the bottom. Ever build a house? Im geussing no. I definitely doubt your hands on experience. I would bet it is 90% book ten percent hands on at best. It shows in your videos. These people you claim are incorrect, they have applied what they are teaching. You have a theory. You are manipulating facts to get there. Far more things are in play than you are accounting for. I would say you will find out very soon. Build your handle. Put it in on the large polless axe. Put it in the hands of people who know how to swing an axe. Putting it on paper is worthless if you cant apply it to the real world. Real world experience says you are wrong.
    Again, if you want to continue the conversation you need to adress your strawman and claims I am saying look to be false. What American felling axes had the plumb line in front of the handle? What Companies that make an American felling axe dont know how to make a handle or about balance? You paper has fraudulent evidence and unproven claims in it. Who could take that seriously if you refuse to adress that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  7. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    It has no fraudulent statements. Watch yourself--that's libel, bucko. If there are any errors in the document, they aren't purposeful and I'll gladly correct them should they be demonstrated to be false.

    Doesn't matter if your line was taped on the center if you were then holding it crooked...

    I'm not manipulating facts to get there, and I'm currently in the process of putting an offset neck handle on that 1300g Trento.

    And there's a world of difference between being good with an axe (or any other tools) and being able to describe how it works with accuracy. Hence all of the whacko knife designs out there by survival celebrities. It doesn't matter if they're great at using the tool if they don't also understand the theory side when it comes to design elements.
     
  8. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Interesting discussion. So I have a question: What happens if the eye is not directly perpendicular to the head. The plumb line could still be dead center but the angle of the bit compared to the handle could still be skewed. How does that affect chopping, accuracy, etc? Serious question. Just interested in the physics behind it since I know little to nothing about axe geometry and construction.
     
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  9. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    Presuming you mean the handle is straight with that crooked eye (rather than being accounted for in hafting) then your center of gravity would shift laterally. That would end up taking the handle off a unified axis, but to the side rather than front to back. On a scythe, which is as crooked and asymmetrical as can be, the center of gravity is usually about a foot back from the heel of the blade and up about a foot and a half in the air, so way out in empty space. To gauge the position accurately it helps to take readings in both front and side views. With a normal straight axe, it's a symmetrical mirrored form, so such a reading is usually unnecessary.
     
  10. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Maybe I didn't lay that out correctly. I could still build an axe head that is not perpendicular to the eye and the center of gravity still be dead center of the eye.
     
  11. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    One second I'm like, "Oh, a thread on axes. I like axes, let me click on this".

    A few seconds of reading later, I'm like, "I no longer like axes."
     
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  12. Tashunka witko

    Tashunka witko Member

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    Axes axises I'm confused.
     
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  13. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    You mean like an adze or hoe? Not sure I follow here.
     
  14. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    No, I am saying I could build an axe head that has an eye going through it at an angle. But when you put a handle in it the center of gravity would still be directly through the center of the eye. So, being that's the case I was just curious how that affects everything y'all have been talking about.
     
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  15. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok. It would swing straight and true (no desire to wobble with both hands in play) but the presentation would be all wonked up. You often find axes with the bit slightly as a twist relative to the eye due to forging procedures, but for blue-collar users a few degrees off doesn't make much difference because you'll naturally end up accounting for it in your stroke as you get used to the tool. A really bad one can cause issues, though, because it won't be aligning the cuts with the target in the desired manner.
     
  16. Strigidae

    Strigidae Moderator Staff Member

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    Winner of the internet.
     
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  17. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    The same phenomena happens for just about any subject when you read the comments section on anything. News articles, YouTube videos, Facebook posts...you name it. :D
     
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  18. Theodore

    Theodore Member

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    I need a picture.
    How would i be holding it crooked if it is taped below where my hand is? Mmmmm. Its right here in what I already said wnd asked"Again, if you want to continue the conversation you need to adress your strawman and claims I am saying look to be false. What American felling axes had the plumb line in front of the handle? What Companies that make an American felling axe dont know how to make a handle or about balance? You paper has fraudulent evidence and unproven claims in it." You made those claims and cant seem to back them up with facts. Its on you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  19. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    Now, I HATE axes.
     
  20. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    IMG_0096.JPG

    I could build this so it balances exactly like this. My question is how does this relate to anything y'all have going on here. Just a question.
     
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