That's what I was getting at earlier. Any gun is better than no gun but a 12 is far superior for a SD weapon IMO
I mean, there are people that EDC 10mm. Discussing what's "enough" is never going to produce a unanimous decision. Some people want barrier penetration, some people want no penetration. Some people want soft shooting, some people want no chance of a target surviving. Everyone is different.
20 ga... I have shot a lot more birds and clay targets than people so I will start there. For many years I shot 4 or 5 rounds of skeet 5 days a week. I quite shooting a 12 ga at skeet 15 years ago. I use the 20 for doubles and the 12 ga event. You can look at the statistics of registered shooters and many will have higher scores in the 28 ga. The 12 ga is not advangtagous, unless there is a mental factor. If I was told that I had to shoot the 28 ga at all events except .410 I would not care. I hunted pheasants for many years and carried a 20 ga chocked .005 and .020( close to skeet and imp mod) with 1 oz of #6 I killed at least as many as anyone in the large group that I hunted with. Some were using 3" 12. I have hunted quail over dogs and farm raised pheasants and used a 28 ga with great results using 3/4 oz of 7.5 The big factor for me is I do not like the patterns in a 20 with anything bigger than #6 and 1 oz the maximum. 3/4 and 7.5# are my max in 28 ga. Exception, I always use a 12 when hunting blue or Gambels quail in open country especially without a dog. I have never shot a deer with anything but a 12 ga and never will. I watched students shooting a 12 ga 870 for 25 years. There are many people for which this gun has too much recoil. Obviously these people had no choice in caliber but for home use they would be better off with a 20. As for effectiveness, in ones home I doubt if the mortician could tell the difference if an intruder were stopped with a 12 ga or 20 with any sort of buckshot. There was a rather infamous New York detective that was staked out in a small grocery store. This detective used a 20 ga for this purpose. Believing that a criminal was about to shoot the clerk he shot the suspect in the side of he head with a 20 ga slug. Being the studious terminal ballistic student that he was, he attended the autopsy. Upon asking the coroner if the suspect felt any pain the doctor replied "this Sxx of a bxtxch thinks he is still robbing the store.
I'm continuing to read and enjoy -- mostly -- what I'm reading here. It's started as an interesting thread with lots of diversity in guns, set ups, stories and opinions. I suspect -- or at least hope -- that will continue. And once again -- since this is, indeed, the Internet -- we are at times talking past one another, especially when particular terms like "adequate" and "enough" haven't been properly defined in this context for most of us, myself included. I am spending some fun time pondering that very thing: when I assert that 20 is enough, or adequate, what exactly do I mean by that, and how do I explain what that means while acknowledging -- and respecting -- that others may use the terms slightly or significantly differently because they have different uses, contexts, experiences, etc? I'm pondering a post of my own where I can lay out what I mean by "20 is enough/adequate", but it won't be today. Sun has poked out for the first time in days with dripping water falling off the roof from melting snow, which means "nice day outside" (at least for another hour or two; more snow coming later) and I want to go walk in the woods out back. Suffice to say this for now. First, and foremost, I'm not seeking validation from anyone about my choice of 20 ga. I never seek validation for my acquisitions of gear. I listen to opinions, read tons of information, then make the decision that seems best for me, even if it goes against popular opinion/advice. Same in this case. Second, I'm not getting "mad". Just because I state something assertively doesn't mean I'm angry about it. I feel no anger that the majority here (and everywhere) choose 12 instead of 20. I've got a lot more important things demanding my anger, and I have -- or try to have -- little anger to go around (it's really not good for you). Shotgun gauges are not one of them. Third, I enter this discussion, at times debate, with this premise: there is NO correct answer to "which is best, 20 or 12". The answer is, it depends, even though in most cases, for most people, 12 will win, hands down. I don't dispute that. But it occurs to me that there are some parallels here to the (in)famous 9mm v .45ACP threads that dominateg(d) so many gun forum for years. (There is a difference between that debate and this one. In that one, there are velocity and mass differences that somewhat offset each other. With 20 v 12, there is great mass difference, but not much (if any) velocity.) But there's another nuance to the words "enough" and "adequate" that I suggest may not be in consideration here, and I want to take the challenge to address that. (Again, not today, perhaps not even this week; I've got some exciting new professional irons in my fire that I want to stoke; they take precedence.) But I'll end for now saying this. Each person has to decide what's "enough" or "adequate", in the same way as deciding about a pickup. F-350, 250, 150 or Ranger? It all depends. I have absolutely no issue with Andy (or anyone else) deciding that 20 is not adequate for him and choosing 12. Zero, zilch, nada. It's based in his experience, knowledge, and situation. All that is good. Where I draw a line is those who claim that 20 is not enough ... unless one is small stature, a weaker gender, etc, and that all others should use 12 ga. For any holding that opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. And I'm fine with that. After all, it's just the Internet.
There's another misperception about my (proposed) shotgun that I need to correct. Even though SD will be one of its roles, both home and camp, that's not its only or even main use. My gun -- which this thread is not really about (equally about every other gun being posted here) -- will be a general purpose long gun for hunting, training (for SD and hunting), as well as SD (including against dog packs, whether coyote or feral --- that's a different story probably more relevant to a future scenario than now). I'll describe in a later post what I'll be hunting with it, and it's neither waterfowl nor (usually) deer. Mostly small game, maybe try my hand at grouse. (I intend to deer hunt with a different long gun.) But for those seeking a purely SD shotgun, yes, I'd agree, 12 ga is the way to go. (That's what I bought for my previous shotgun -- an 870P in 12 -- about 8 years ago: studio defense in a bad neighborhood in a west coast city, and I lived in the studio. (Some of the strangest stuff I've ever seen in a 'hood happened among homeless people sleeping in cars on my street which I could watch using binocs from my upstairs window -- best to know what's going on in the hood, even if it un-nerves you.) Having said that, I'm totally convinced after much reading and watching videos of ammo, penetration tests (from gels to solid exterior doors), etc that if one needed a SD shotgun but had only a 20 ga, it would be enough/adequate. I'm not advocating that option, but if it's what a person has or chooses, they shouldn't feel undergunned. With attention to ammo and other factors, a 20 will get the job done. {typo correction: role v roll}
I can't disagree with that notion @Stone. 20 is GREAT for small game and fine for SD. The 12 is opposite, GREAT for SD and fine for small game. With the latter of both you gotta watch shot placement.
Just got around to watching this. Very interesting and useful. One of the most innovative ideas I've seen in a while.
I wish I could like this post more than once. Lots of truth in here. Was that detective ol Jimmy Cirillo?
I found this video last night as I continue to watch/read everything I can on shotguns as I prepare to own the fourth shotgun of my life, first in about 9 years (after selling my 870p). It's interesting that I've always -- well, mostly -- seen myself mostly as a rifle guy. And I think that's accurate. (I'm excited to buy my next rifle also, but after the shotgun.) But there's just something about a shotgun in addition to a rifle. (Yes, for me, only two long guns; it's just my style.) It's like having two kinds of pets: a cat and a dog. They're so different, but you like both. (Or is the metaphor beer and wine, or BBQ and catfish, or blond and redhead? I don't know.) So, color me eager in almost a kid-like fashion to get my shotgun. At least once a day, I say to myself, "I wish I could buy my shotgun today." (I can't. Finances. It's still at least a month off, maybe three.) So to appease that hunger, I'm living vicariously, studying stuff that may be of use to me when I get it. (Hence this thread.) This video is about taming 12 ga recoil, especially when used for SD. It seems reasonable to me, but I defer to others to critique it. If it's reliable, I suspect it could be of some value regardless of gauge.
Speaking of my next shotgun, as I stated upstream, it's going to be a Stoeger Coach Gun. I've owned one single shot and two pumps. Never a SxS, which just never seemed practical to me after migrating from single shot to pump. But I think my attention to practicality masked a secret desire to own a double barrel, especially a short double barrel. I've learned tons about SxS in the last year in the lead up to the decision to buy this one, everything from how to tune them up (especially Stoeger coach guns, the regular, not the supreme, which tend to need a little finishing, I'm reading -- but I'm up to the task. I love putting finishing smoothing touches on guns) to a close study of chokes. (My SCG will come stock with IC/M.) But if I wasn't going to buy a SxS, this little puppy would be my choice. Love me some ghost rings on a shotgun. Here's a decent review/overview. At 40.5" OAL, it's about 4" too long for my taste and stomping grounds (thick north woods). Plus, I'm seeking the simplicity of a SxS, plus the fact that I can take it down in about 20 sec to carry it in my pack (er, Halftrack). Still, I like the looks of this one. If I ever decided to add a second dog to the pack ...
Went to my lgs today. They have several Stoeger Coach Guns. Never paid much attention to them before. Seems like a really handy thing to have. Damn... all this forum does is cost me money.
Jim was the man. Fortunate enough to spend some time with him once or twice on the range. I learned a lot from him, both on and off the range. They are cherished lessons that I have passed onto others. Never got to meet Col. Cooper. But I did get to meet some of the other good instructors of a time gone by. Pat Rogers, Awerbuck. I'd like to get down to Bill Rogers place sometime.
Thanks for the kind words. I did not know Jim. He worked at FLETC in Glynco before I was detailed there. I heard many tales about him from other instructors. Although he has passed, I will not repeat any of them in print, but he was by many accounts quite the character. He seemed to have a lot of common sense. Now that I think about it, him using the 20 gauge pretty much validates it as an anti personnel round. That and the 30 carbine which he also liked. There is no way to contradict his opinion from an experience viewpoint as no one has done what he did...I was trying to be polite. No one has killed as many people in a Law Enforcement capacity as he has. Regarding the SxS for home defense, as a retired homeowner I prefer it as the shortness makes room clearing easier when cutting the pie(looking around corners). In addition as I age I consider the fact that if set upon, the shorter the gun the more difficult it is to get wrestled away from you. It is debatable whether those 5" is relevant but I believe so. Many people accidentally short shuck the pump, even the highly trained.
....much of what he advocates around stance and hold is how we have been trained here since the mid 90s. LOP is always a problem especially if you are in an a role that seems you wearing a vest of plate carrier as well (this can translate to cold vs hot climate clothing too). Adjustable LOP guns offer some accommodation but at a cost generally in comfort, this is a tough balance to strike.
Hey all, I very seldom shoot a 20ga Mossberg 500. I took my first deer with it, and it went over and flipped around like I shot it with a Volvo. A 270 grain projectile at 1500fps (muzzle) with a frontal area like that... damn. I'm convinced. It's about the same ballistics as my muzzle loader, which had nearly the same effect on my next deer. Plenty for deer within 100yd, IMO. Elk, maybe not. None of those around here anyway. People pistol-hunt deer with .357's, fer Pete's sake. Not that I'm advocating it. Ultimately a 12ga is too big for my 152lb frame, and the pump 20ga kicks too hard for me to enjoy it, so I'm looking for a semi-auto 20ga to replace the 500. Also, the slide puts the fore-end so darn far away and it rattles like hell. Since I'm not much of a shotgunner, I'm considering the Rem. 11-87, figuring I can tune it in if necessary. But I don't shoot such things enough to justify the simple, clean-running Benelli I really want. Any opinions on the recent 11-87's around here? I'd probably buy new, though I haven't poked through the used racks yet.
