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Show me your axes!

Discussion in 'Knives, Gear, Guns And Other Tools' started by Klynesquatch, Sep 8, 2016.

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Theodore Member

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THEODORE IN ALL CAPS

FortyTwoBlades said: ↑

You very clearly didn't understand what I wrote then...indeed, it was still balanced when half the head was lopped off but what it changed was the natural presentation of the tool in use. The tool rebalanced itself around its new center of gravity, which would then effectively open the presentation of the face, and bringing the handle off axis. To correct for that change (in presentation caused by the change in balance, not a state of imbalance) a curve in the neck of the handle returned the handle to being a long a unified axis, and the angle of the face was closed to restore it to its proper presentation. The problem was not one of balance, but of presentation that was altered by a change in the mass distribution. Throw a body of any shape into space and it will freely rotate around its center of gravity, regardless of how it is shaped. A tool only becomes imbalanced when you have rotational forces around an axle that does not run through the center of gravity.
THE PERFECT BALANCE POINT IS DIRECTLY CENTER AS IT WOULD BE ON A DOUBLE BIT. ANYTHING YOU DO TO GET AWAY FROM THAT POINT IS PUTTING THE AXE OUT OF BALANCE. ANY ADJUSTMENT YOU MAKE THAT IS NOT TO THE HEAD IS EVIDENCE THE TOOL IS OUT OF BALANCE.

Forgive me for not making the "ceteris paribus" qualifier, but I thought it obvious. If all else is held equal then the heavier axe will always cut faster. If you were somehow able to increase the head weight without altering the geometry, hardness, etc. of the axe--say some sort of material that behaves exactly the same as steel except it is twice as heavy, then that heavier axe will out-cut the lighter one, but more energy will be required in the lifting and swinging.
IT COULDNT BE ANY MORE UNCLEAR. YOU MADE THE CLAIM WHILE SAYING MY AXE AND YOURS NEEDED TO BE CLOSE IN WEIGHT. SO NICE BACK PEDAL.

It was actually about the same diameter.

IT DIDNT LOOK IT, BUT EVEN SO.....YOU JUST TOOK NEAR AS MAKES NO DIFFERENCE THE SAME AMOUNT OF SWINGS TO BUCK A PINE, LESS THAN HALF THE HARDNESS OF THE OAK.

Actually the thinner geometry enabled me to take narrower notches. It wasn't a problem of not being able to hold it at an angle--you're pulling that one out of the air, and if you had any experience in using these axes you wouldn't make such absurd and baseless claims.
ABOUT 107 ON YOUR FILM YOU HAVE ISSUES HOLDING AN ANGLE MABY 105. I AM MAKING AN OBSERVATION. YOU ALSO EXPERIENCED WHAT WE COULD CALL MORE THEN NORMAL DEFLECTION DUE TO ALL THE HEAD WEIGHT BEING IN FRONT OF THE HANDLE.

Frozen pine is notoriously hard compared to thawed, and frozen pine knots have taken half-dollar chips out of the edge of many an axe. Surely you know this. I did not expend a lot of energy...how would you even be able to tell this from watching a video vs. actual experience in use...? In what way was his axe an outright superior design? Superior for what? In what respects? You continue to make vague, non-specific claims. I was using an axe with a head weighing only 2.86lb and chopping frozen wood that had an unsupported end that absorbed a portion of the blow. Have a video of your own chopping?

SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY FOR BUCKING AND FELLING. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE VIDEO I COPIED OF YOURS, LOG WAS ON THE GROUND AND DIDNT LOOK LIKE IT WAS FROZEN OR EVEN MILDLY COLD OUTSIDE. ARE YOU CONFUSED OR BEING DISHONEST? THE LOG IS COMPLETELY ON THE GROUND.
Yes, that's abundantly clear...
I COULD MAKE INSULTS AS WELL, BUT AS OF YET HAVE NOT..........

The only things I'm saying they're wrong about are blaming poll-less axes for being ineffective or out of balance when they can be made to mimic American bit profiles (the Basque axes are very similar to American Connecticuts, including having a high centerline) or can have the handle brought onto a unified axis...and that even off-axis handles are generally not problematic on head patterns that traditionally have them because the twisting force on the hands is both minimal (easily compensated for in the grip) and that twisting force is only even present when the upper hand is right under the head. As soon as you make the slide of the upper hand, it's gone. Furthermore, it's an oversimplification to say that a poll is for balance. It's a simpler thing to say, but not really accurate. The job of a poll is to make the manufacture of a unified-axis handle easier, whether by hand or in a factory setting, and to add pounding capability to the axe. Again, you haven't ever tried one and yet you're trying to lecture me on how they behave...

YOU YOURSELF HAVE PROVIDED VIDEO AND A PAPER ON HOW THEY BEHAVE. YOU HAVE TO COMPENSATE FOR THE BEHAVIOR OF YOUR AXES. ENOUGH SAID........

The overwhelming majority of them didn't much care enough to think long on the design aspect of it and were at the whim of manufacturers as a result. As long as it worked and it would take and hold an edge they were happy enough. It was only a handful of more savvy users and manufacturers together that drove the development of new patterns, and they built their designs off of the contemporary method of manufacture and design rather than starting from the ground up. As such it's more of a slow evolutionary process and where you have divergent evolutionary paths you don't see one path suddenly jump the tracks and take on elements of a divergent style, because a tool is more than just the sum of its parts. They all work synergistically to complement the other features. You can find thick axes, thin axes, deep axes, shallow axes, broad axes and narrow axes within both schools of design, yet they all look different from one another because of the way they've been optimized for their respective regions' needs and preferences. You'll notice that early American polled axes actually had a much larger poll than is found today. They actually swung back to a somewhat smaller one on all but models like rafting/construction axes that were used for pounding.

LOL, MANUFACTURING FINALLY ALLOWED FOR A SUPERIOR AXE. ARE YOU CLAIMING THAT WHEN METAL QUALITY AND MANUFACTURING ABILITY WENT UP THEY INTENTIONALLY PRODUCED A MORE COMPLICATED INFERIOR AXE? LOL.

They actually have a very minimal poll to the point of being nearly non-existent and the poll is nowhere near equal mass of the bit...you'll notice that the handles both on Australian/Tasmanian and racing axes have offset necks because of this...
I SAID THE POLL AND THE HIGH CHEEK ARE EQUAL TO THE MASS OF THE BIT. IM SURE I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO A GUY WHO WROTE A PAPER TRYING TO EXCUSE AWAY HORIBLY IMBALANCED TOOLS THE BENIFITS OF MOVING THE BIT BACK AND THINNING THE EDGE,SHORTENING THE BIT AND ADDING MASS ON THE HIGH CHEEK SO AS TO CONCETRATE AND BALANCE AN AXE.........I THINK YOU ARE BEING SELECTIVELY DISHONEST WITH YOUR RESPONSES TO ME. I AM NOT IMPRESSED.

You're not understanding what I've written, it seems. My paper consists of the very claims that I'm making. If you can't see that then I'm not sure what it would take for you to understand...I don't think there can be any further meaningful discussion until you've had a chance to hold and use the axes in question here.

YOUR PAPER IS A PROVES THAT THE AXES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE OUT OF BALANCE. YOU CAN TALK TILL YOU ARE BLUE THE FACE, IM SURE YOU WILL, CHANGE THE WORDING, YOU HAVE, IT WILL NOT CHANGE THE FACT THEY ARE OUT OF BALANCE AND YOU WANT TO CLAIM THEY ARE NOT.

So when is this happening? Where are you in Maine? I already asked this, and got no response. I'm in Shapleigh, 04076. Not much on my new property to chop besides red and white pines. There's some white oaks but they're all small young growth and I don't really need to drop any of the larger trees of either sort at the moment. But if you know where there's some wood to cut, let's do it up.
I HAVE A LOT IN PITTSTON WE CAN USE. I HAVE SOME DRIED PINE I WILL DEBARK. SOME NICE BIG LOGS. ( MUCH LARGER THAN THOSE IN YOUR VIDEO) THAT SHOULD SHOW ANY FAULT WITH EDGE GEOMETRY RIGHT OF THE BAT. I WILL HAVE AN OAK CUT NEARER THE DATE. NOT AS BIG AS THE PINE BUT SIZEABLE SAY THAT WILL EXPOSE ANY OTHER ISSUES. LOL.
JUST SO WE ARE CLEAR, I WILL HAVE BOTH YOU AND I FILMED AND WILL PUT IT UP HERE. YOU HONESTLY HAVE TO BE A LYING TO YOURSELF IF YOU THINK ONE OF THOSE AXES IS GOING TO EVEN COME CLOSE TO PREFORMING LIKE AN AMERICAN FELLING AXE. I ADVISE YOU ASK CALLAHAN HOW YOU ARE GOING TO FAIR. I IMAGINE HE WILL TELL YOU THE HARD TRUTH. I HAVE ALREADY SEEN IN YOUR VIDEO I POSTED THAT IT CAN NOT.( YOU MAY WANT TO WORK ON YOUR FORM, THE VIDEO I POSTED WITH THE KID WOULD BE A GOOD START.)
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[/QUOTE]
THEODORE IN ALL CAPS. MY RESPONSES TO YOU ARE WITHIN YOUR QUOTE IN ALL CAPS.

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Theodore, Dec 4, 2016

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FortyTwoBlades said: ↑

And yes, Cook was wrong about a number of his claims. However, he deserves credit as the only other person I've seen actively attempt to describe the phenomenon that I've been discussing. He just had a limited range of experience and information to draw from when making his assessments, and so he makes a few false attributions to the dynamics he's describing and draws incorrect conclusions as a result. But he got a lot closer than most folks did at describing it from a technical perspective. That being said, countless individuals throughout history have instinctively or intuitively understood these dynamics on a non-technical "gut" level because it's much easier to feel than describe or quantify conceptually. This is reflected in axe designs throughout history and across cultures. The largest reason for American pattern axes for spreading in use as far and wide as they did can largely be attributed to two things: the power of American capitalism and, above all else, hickory. Hickory is such an overwhelmingly superior wood to all others for axe handles that once American companies switched from exporting heads alone to foreign nations and began shipping them with hickory handles, their popularity surged to the point that the heads, which had previously sold reasonably well but not so well as to have the actual American patterns gain much traction, became ingrained in the public consciousness in those nations.
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Well, he wasnt telling people to use an unbalanced axe and hold back with the top hand to make up for it being off balance, lol.

Last edited: Dec 4, 2016

Theodore, Dec 4, 2016

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Be nice to see some more photos in the show me your axe thread, haha.

The Warrior, Dec 4, 2016

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The Warrior said: ↑

Be nice to see some more photos in the show me your axe thread, haha.
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My bad I will step out.

Theodore, Dec 4, 2016

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Theodore said: ↑

My bad I will step out.
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It's all good man. It's been a healthy debate. I just think that neither one of you will convince the other.

The Warrior, Dec 4, 2016

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I haven't the faintest clue what they've been talking about.

Sheepdog, Dec 4, 2016

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I don't mind the debate either. I'm actually supportive of debates. Both of you better start posting some pictures now! Lol

ManOfSteel, Dec 4, 2016

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Pretty much. Taking it to PM so we don't keep cluttering this thread up.

Here; have a 1400g Adler (German) axe.

FortyTwoBlades, Dec 4, 2016

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A better place!!!!

Is Theodore a third screen name of "someone special"? Just curious due to the similarities of debate style to someone silly.

JMJ, Dec 4, 2016

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JMJ said: ↑

Is Theodore a third screen name of "someone special"? Just curious due to the similarities of debate style to someone silly.
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Lol. I've been thinking the same thing all day. The phrasing is uncanny. Brother from another mother perhaps.

Sheepdog, Dec 4, 2016

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Sheepdog said: ↑

Lol. I've been thinking the same thing all day. The phrasing is uncanny. Brother from another mother perhaps.
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He's becoming a hydra!!!!

JMJ, Dec 4, 2016

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How many screen names can one guy possibly want?

And thanks for the giveaway @FortyTwoBlades I'll use the hell out of it!

ManOfSteel, Dec 4, 2016

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1300g Trento on the left, 1800g Italian racing axe on the right.

FortyTwoBlades, Dec 4, 2016

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FortyTwoBlades said: ↑

1300g Trento on the left, 1800g Italian racing axe on the right.

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Man, that thing is freakin' huge.

The Warrior, Dec 4, 2016

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Back to the pictures.

My first attempt to carve a hatchet handle. Yet another axe head found at a swap meet.

Sheepdog, Dec 4, 2016

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ManOfSteel said: ↑

How many screen names can one guy possibly want?

And thanks for the giveaway @FortyTwoBlades I'll use the hell out of it!
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One for every personality I guess..

JMJ, Dec 4, 2016

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FortyTwoBlades said: ↑

1300g Trento on the left, 1800g Italian racing axe on the right.

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They both have polls. I don't like it anymore lol. All jokes aside I'm DYING for a Hoffman Blacksmithing 3# Camp Axe with a 28" hickory handle. It's my birthday and I'm on a mission to find one before the end of the night.

ManOfSteel, Dec 4, 2016

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Can someone explain to me what a freaking pole is? I need to know whether I like it or not. lol.

Sheepdog, Dec 4, 2016

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Sheepdog said: ↑

Can someone explain to me what a freaking pole is? I need to know whether I like it or not. lol.
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The hammer part on the south side of your northbound axe.

ManOfSteel, Dec 4, 2016

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The Warrior said: ↑

Man, that thing is freakin' huge.
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The racing axe is basically the bit profile of a Trento, the eye of a Cadore, and the cheeks bulked up to put some weight and chip popping ability on it. At 1800g (3.96lb) head weight it's heavier than I like to use for horizontal cuts, but for bucking it's a beast.

FortyTwoBlades, Dec 4, 2016

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