A word about liability

Discussion in 'Wilderness and Tactical Healthcare Management' started by Joelski, Sep 26, 2016.

  1. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    I see IFAK's, Blow-Out Kits, etc.. not just here, but all over the internet and just want to offer a cautionary note to all who carry these things. First of all, thank you for all you do. It takes a special person to step up and make the effort and in this day and age, we have plenty who will stand by and allow a person, even children to die rather than be bothered taking the time and inconvenience to attempt to save a life. There are some things to consider when putting together a kit. Those that know will nod and smile, others might get miffed, but that's not the intent and as they say. don't try on the shoe if you're afraid it'll fit!

    I see a lot of gear Carried/employed in kits by people who admit to having no training in it's use other than reading about it on the internet, or watching somebody's youtube video. Again; hats off to any lay person who actually jumps in and does something helpful, but it's not the actual skill involved in performing the intervention where I see people f@#k up, its the on-going monitoring of said interventions that people have no clue about. Reassessment, because chest seals aren't infallible; I don't even use vented seals because they are just as likely to clog as work.

    I get seizures when I see chest darts in a lay person's kit who has admitted to not having trained been to a minimum competency level (READ: Licensed to practice).

    Think about this: Too high and you stick a large vessel and create non-compressible bleeding. Too low and at the least, you create a pneumo where none previously existed (I've seen this done by trained "professionals"). At the worst, you can nick a coronary vessel and create pericardial tamponade. An injury that requires a pericardiocentesis is risky enough in the hospital under ideal conditions, let alone as a field-expedient procedure! The best you can do is the basics. Bleeding control and BLS airway and breathing care. As long as you stick to solid, simple basics, the Good Samaritan laws of the country will absolutely protect you. Step out of your depth and prepare to lose the shirt off your back.

    If you do live in the boonies, or venture into areas where injuries are common, you owe it to yourself and the people you could potential save (or kill) to get accredited training from a reputable local institution of higher learning. Most people do this by volunteering at their local Fire Department (And they need your time!). Most departments will pay for as much training as you seek to get as long as you use your skills to run fire and EMS calls.

    My intent is in no way meant to discourage anybody from getting out and helping people in the worst moments of their life; if some clarity comes about, so be it. I want people to be doing the best they can at the highest level they seek to practice. Cheers, peace and party on! :)
     
  2. Frankenstein

    Frankenstein Banned Member

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    I was going to pose a question similar to this basically to the point of being able to accept defeat in adversity, as I have stated previously in ithet topics my wife takes anti-coagulants so I carry bleeding kits but beyond the basics of stabilizing a certain level of injury there isn't much a average Joe can do I see folks with surgical kits and chest seals and the like and in certain terms it scares me to think this guy might go to working on someone? no your limits and no when to ring the bell and run.
     
  3. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    i love gear.

    i like the high speed latest med tech out there. Civilian FAKS are ******* bullshit garbage crap. MILSPEC / SWAT / LEO kits are the best.


    I have the training, Level 2 Industrial BC Canada. (expired but that doesn't mean i'm an gimp.)

    my first aid started when i was running a hot saw on the cutblocks./......and i watched an elder logger get dragged and punctured over the cutblock by the highline....

    i watched the senior logger chop off buddys arm with an axe, and then got close up with the first aid, despite my puking. I remember the hot coppery smell of arterial blood....i remember the lead whip lighting a ******* cigar, then shutting off the bleed out on buddy. the whole time he instructed me exactly what to do...calmly.

    so yea...i got high speed med gear... I got chest needles. I have zero idea how use a chest needle,;....BUT , people in my group know how to use em.......and I am updating my training,. be thankful there are people like me out there that push their friends to carry the kit. and get training.

    There is NO need for liability here....no one will blame Esee if something funks up.
     
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  4. Bcamos

    Bcamos Member

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    Fantastic post Joel. I see a lot of people with gear they have no business using on a living person. I agree, basics are best. Stop the bleeding, clear the airway and stabilize any fractures and evac them out of the woods as quickly as possible.

    I'm in no way medically trained. But I know the basics. Two combat tours means lots and lots of training on how to stop bleeding.

    Also people need to understand, someone missing half their arm isn't going you let you properly seat a tourniquet. They're going to fight you, they're in pain and their adrenaline is fueling their fight or flight. You have to hold them down, shove a knee into their shoulder and cinch that thing down as hard as you can. Hurt them, you have to. Doesn't matter if it's your wife, your best friend or you own kids. If you're ever in the situation to NEED a tourniquet on someone, you have to do it properly. Which means the person needing it isn't going to like it.
     
  5. C99c

    C99c Member

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    Unless I missed something or misread Joelski's post I believe he was referring to personal liability, not liability in regards to this site or ESEE/RAT the company.

    As in you use some part of your kit you have no training for, there is a negative outcome and you get charged or sued for it.
    Not all states or countries have good Samaritan laws and the ones that do exist aren't always very broad.
     
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  6. Bcamos

    Bcamos Member

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    Exactly. You go to trach someone and end up killing them, their death is on you.

    In most states, once you begin CPR/First Aid you're responsible for that person until someone else takes over. If you start and then decide to give up before they die or before EMT shows up, you're in hot ****.
     
  7. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Bushy, I wasn't referfing to anybody in particular and as you have training, good on you, but please also recognize that butting a cigar cherry on a bleed might look cool, but it also guarantees zero, **** all chance the guy gets his arm back, and thats definitely not cool. The guy may have had no chance whatsoever of keeping his arm, but we do our damndest right up to "life over limb".
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  8. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Also, civvy kits from Chinook Medical have C-A-T's, Izzys and you can buy real life, HSLD Combat Gauze on Amazon.Com (real, not counterfeit!). You can even get them in marpat drop-legs if you feel like having your pants fall down all day! :)
     
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  9. Strigidae

    Strigidae Moderator Staff Member

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    One thought to consider is that in some emergencies there are trained folks there that can use someone elses kit to their skill level. I carry much more than i feel comfortable using for the just in case a doc/medic/nurse/etc says "dammit if i only had a ------ " and i can toss it to them. Just to add and not be contrary joelski.
     
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  10. 91bravo

    91bravo Guest

    If you give CPR and the person doesn't make it, you're covered under the Good Samaritan clause. I've given CPR to a co-worker earlier last year and he didn't make it. Talk about a weight on your shoulders. I tried though, I really tried.
     
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  11. Bcamos

    Bcamos Member

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    Right, I was mentioning that if you give up CPR before EMT or someone else takes over, you're in trouble. At least that's how it's been explained to me. Once you start first aid, you're obligated to continue until relieved or until the person dies.
     
  12. 91bravo

    91bravo Guest

    Yeah, you're supposed to administer until EMS arrives, or if another good samaritan offers to help. But I can see certain situations where the CPR giver just doesn't have the physical capabilities to continue giving chest compressions. When you're in that position, you'll give it your all for sure. It could be worse I guess, you could be miles in the woods far far away from any kind of help and know that it would take forever for first responders to reach you. So you pretty much HAVE to be the hero there. At least until help finally does arrive.

    First time I've ever had to use CPR and hopefully the last...

    Stay alert, stay alive!
     
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  13. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    arg...buddy did NOT burn a cig on a open bleed. he burned a cig and chopped off the arm of a logger being dragged by a choker cable over 1/2 klick of felled logs, with broken branch stubs. . He lit up under duress realising he had to amputate his fellow worker or that worker would die.


    and thank you for the private message , that means a lot to me.
     
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  14. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    Ive never puked so much, nor been sheep dipped into trauma aid , like i did on that day.


    stil have ptsd over it
     
  15. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Gotcha. That would be tough to do, but I bet you are among those who could make a split second decision to save a person's life. That would be hard to get over no matter how many trauma experts tell you that you made the only correct decision.
     
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  16. Dave41079

    Dave41079 Member

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    Most people don't realize how violent, ugly, and physically draining proper CPR is. Having family members in the room during a code is a pretty hot topic right now, and it's what my wife did her doctoral thesis on. There are really good arguments on both sides.

    Something interesting that is germane to this discussion, is that in TN there is a duty to help law. If something happens, you must intervene to the best of your abilities. My understanding is this came about from the Kitty Genovese case in NY. That doesn't mean you should go ABOVE your abilities though, as Joelski stated. Who the patient is plays a big role in it as well. I might do something that is out of my scope but I am comfortable with for my wife, but wouldn't do the same thing for a complete stranger for fear of repercussion. Location is another factor for me. If I'm on the interstate, EMS isn't nearly as far away as it would be if I'm overlanding and 200 miles from civilization. This is an extremely good topic, and I'm glad it was brought up.
     
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  17. 91bravo

    91bravo Guest

    CPR is very physically demanding, especially if you're on your own. When the adrenaline is pumping, you won't notice...that is, until you get tired. Give it your all because that's all you can do!
     
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  18. bax229

    bax229 Member

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    At least in California, even if you are certified or licensed (Medic, RN, EMT, etc ), using your own homemade kit for ALS, liability still fails on you if the situation goes downhill. BLS until EMS arrives! First Responder certs are very easy to obtain.
     
  19. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Although not surprising, it is California after all, such a statute fails to recognize that most all kits, whether used by a paid, volunteer, or layperson provider are pieced together from a selection of individual items.
     
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  20. bax229

    bax229 Member

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    I totally agree...sad world (or state) we live in where an off duty ALS provider can be sued for rendering aid prior to EMS arrival.
     

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